tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post3034377469849736497..comments2024-03-18T15:28:13.866-04:00Comments on A Concord Pastor Comments: It's Not "Just" a SymbolConcord Pastorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-3116037464694140172009-05-08T10:43:00.000-04:002009-05-08T10:43:00.000-04:00Comments here have wandered off topic to a relat...Comments here have wandered off topic to a related issue that has often been debated here and in other places. If I could edit comments before publishing them, I might think of posting the constructive substance of them, minus the <I>ad hominem</I> elements -but Blogger.com doesn't offer that possibility.<br /><br />Comments closed on this post.Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-42519253205245195092009-05-07T23:44:00.000-04:002009-05-07T23:44:00.000-04:00Dear Piskie and Christine,
I'm very sorry if I hur...Dear Piskie and Christine,<br />I'm very sorry if I hurt somebody with my description of abortion as "cold blooded" and "premeditated". I never meant to judge anybody, only the action. And I know that in most cases the mother goes through a horrendous emotional ordeal. In many cases, it leaves scars that last for a lifetime. I don't need to do any research to know this. <br />Anyway, without minimizing the responsibility of the mother in the action, I had in mind the doctors who do the abortions. I don't need to investigate or think much to "pronounce" cold blood and premeditation on their part. It's just pointing at facts: they do it professioanlly, routinely, and by appointment. If that's not cold blood and premeditation... well, I don't know where they might be found.<br />As for the mothers, I have always been of the opinion that nobody should rush to condemn them, and that the law should contemplate all the circumstances that diminish their responsibility in the action. I would never send a mother to prison for an abortion.<br />But the inescapable fact is that abortion is the killing of an innocent human being, which is legally and commonly called murder. <br />Piskie, you say it's not a person. You say that it's a clump of cells, and I agree. We are all a clump of cells. You say those cells are mostly undifferentiated, and I disagree. They are as differentiated as any other cell forming part of the clump you and I are. You can research this, since it's a medical fact: each of those cells contains all the genetic information that results in the differentiation of every individual person. Take the ADN of any of your cells and it will contain exactly the same information that could have been found in any of the cells when you were a fetus. And as you may know, that information is unique for every individual human being. It does not get any more differentiated than that.<br />You may still deny them the quality of personhood, which is what I would probably feel strongly tempted to do if I was ever involved in an abortion. Like I would have probably denied personhood to negroes if I was a southern planter owner of a good batch of slaves.<br />Please do not think I seek to demonize anybody. I don't judge people who are involved in abortions. As I don't judge people who owned slaves. In fact, I believe there were many kindhearted and well intentioned human beings who owned slaves and defended their right to do it. As I firmly believe there are many kindhearted and well intentioned people who support abortion, or have been involved in one or many.Xaviernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-635109817387600342009-05-07T23:06:00.000-04:002009-05-07T23:06:00.000-04:00From the sidebar:
Comments respectful of all who ...From the sidebar:<br /><br /><I>Comments respectful of all who will read them are invited and welcomed. Comments questioning others' good will and sincerity will not be published. I don't agree with everything posted here so I doubt that you will either. I believe that in respectfully discussing different points of view we can learn from each other in seeking the truth. -ConcordPastor</I>Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-87584912260211792482009-05-07T23:00:00.000-04:002009-05-07T23:00:00.000-04:00Anyone who reads this blog with some regularity kn...Anyone who reads this blog with some regularity knows that I hold a pro-life position - I was taken to task for that several times and in a number of ways in my posts in the campaign leading up to the election in November '08. My stance on the Obama invitation to ND is another instance of where I stand on this issue.<br /><br />Others hold different views and as long as those views are expressed with good will, they will be posted here. <br /><br />Comments that counter other points of view will be posted. Comments that question the good will or sincerity of other commenters will not be posted. Comment on the comments, not on the commenters.<br /><br />Again: note the guidelines for commenters on the sidebar.<br /><br />Several times above commenters have written about why "most abortions" take place. I don't have the stats at hand but it would be interesting for someone to do some homework here and give us some statistics on the circumstances under which "most abortions" take place.Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-87490368087202155302009-05-07T22:23:00.000-04:002009-05-07T22:23:00.000-04:00Please read the note on the sidebar regarding post...Please read the note on the sidebar regarding posting comments. Comments questioning the sincerity or good will of others will not be published.Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-30021341449189691972009-05-07T19:55:00.000-04:002009-05-07T19:55:00.000-04:00just another piskie: You've just made me feel a w...just another piskie: You've just made me feel a whole lot better. I didn't know how to put into words what I was feeling from reading that comment. But I agree ... I would not use "murder". Most people who seek or have had abortions are young, desperate,very scared, and believe at the time, ... this is the only solution. It is not cold blooded murder for most who go through this heart wrenching ordeal.christinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-27003370624017644232009-05-07T16:31:00.000-04:002009-05-07T16:31:00.000-04:00Anonymous, my point went whooshing over your head....Anonymous, my point went whooshing over your head. My comments were about characterizing abortion as "cold-blooded." I wasn't taking on any other points.<br /><br />It is clear to me that that it would be pointless for me to do so, since we apparently have very different definitions of "person." I would agree on "potential human" or "embryo" or "fetus," but I do not view a mostly undifferentiated clump of cells as a person. I would also question your use of a legal term, "murder,"<br />but let's not take this any farther. You and I both know it won't go anywhere profitable.just another piskiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11114240498737481553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-51004796726824210332009-05-07T13:17:00.000-04:002009-05-07T13:17:00.000-04:00Sorry about the malfunctioning link.
Try this.Sorry about the malfunctioning link.<br /><br />Try <A HREF="http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/search?q=canon+st.+john+lateran" REL="nofollow">this.</A>Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-72053029675086954242009-05-07T05:58:00.000-04:002009-05-07T05:58:00.000-04:00The link to Tea at Trianon is non functioning.The link to Tea at Trianon is non functioning.joshjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12470637127018300288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-75389303433039977412009-05-06T15:11:00.000-04:002009-05-06T15:11:00.000-04:00Piskie,
Perhaps you should remember that abortion ...Piskie,<br />Perhaps you should remember that abortion is *always* the killing of an innocent and undefended person in a most brutal way. The fact that mothers suffer too in making the decision is in recognition of that fact. It does not excuse the act, which is murder. The emotional toll on those who have abortions and those who provide them -- on everyone involved -- is another strong argument against laws allowing it.<br /><br />Abortion has been argued many times before on this blog, unfortunately. It is absolutely prohibited by the Catholic Church. It will stay prohibited. The Church cannot change its stance, since abortion violates natural and moral law. <br /><br />Irish GalAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-12966271532958244782009-05-06T14:58:00.000-04:002009-05-06T14:58:00.000-04:00Josh: I believe there's a difference, historical a...Josh: I believe there's a difference, historical and subtle, between the two instances. I was helped in understanding this by Elena's post on the topic over at <A HREF="teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2009/03/honorary-canon.html" REL="nofollow">Tea At Trianon</A>.<br /><br />Be sure to read Elena's exchange with Terry in the combox on her post.Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-16153203465976183302009-05-06T13:26:00.000-04:002009-05-06T13:26:00.000-04:00Xavier, you need to investigate (or at least think...Xavier, you need to investigate (or at least think) a bit more before you make any more pronouncements.<br /><br />First, we don't know that the death penalty is imposed on only innocent people. Innocent people are convicted of crimes every day. <br /><br />Second, most abortions are far from cold-blooded. For the most part they are the result of painful decision making and take a great emotional toll on the woman having the abortion. <br /><br />Both of these issues are far more complex than can be summed up in slogans or catch phrases.just another piskiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11114240498737481553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-26575641869591018972009-05-06T09:08:00.000-04:002009-05-06T09:08:00.000-04:00Peter,
I have to say that I agree with you. I woul...Peter,<br />I have to say that I agree with you. I wouldn't invite either of them.Xaviernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-41789372488842179212009-05-06T07:58:00.000-04:002009-05-06T07:58:00.000-04:00Is the Holy Father, Benedict XVI, to be admonished...Is the Holy Father, Benedict XVI, to be admonished for giving the honorary award of Canon of the Basilica of St. John Lateran to France's President Nicolas Sarkozy, who is a twice-divorced cultural Catholic who is pro-abortion? Or is this also some type of exception that doesn't fit the Notre Dame situation like the Al Smith Dinner with Cardinal Edward Egan?joshjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12470637127018300288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-58975201329331111312009-05-06T00:28:00.000-04:002009-05-06T00:28:00.000-04:00Xavier,
The issues don't need to be put on the sa...Xavier,<br /><br />The issues don't need to be put on the same level. The principle is of opposition to Church teaching, not the issues which individuals oppose. Regrading their opposition to the Gospel of Life, Bush and Obama should both be excluded from a Notre Dame Commencement.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03655491639057314900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-77487174747472099992009-05-05T15:52:00.000-04:002009-05-05T15:52:00.000-04:00It was Cardinal Edward Egan, not Cardinal John Ega...It was Cardinal Edward Egan, not Cardinal John Egan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-20181408774969779412009-05-05T09:19:00.000-04:002009-05-05T09:19:00.000-04:00Peter,
Even though the Church has been very consis...Peter,<br />Even though the Church has been very consistent lately in opposing the death penalty, it's only a matter of justice and accuracy to make a distinction. As you well said, in the death penalty we are dealing with the "execution of criminals". In the case of abortion we are dealing with cold, premeditated murder of an innocent humand being. No matter how wrong death penalty is (and I totally agree it is wrong), it can never be put at the same level as abortion.Xaviernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-19380557468810715702009-05-05T09:12:00.000-04:002009-05-05T09:12:00.000-04:00That's so very nicely said, ConcordPastor!That's so very nicely said, ConcordPastor!Xaviernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-85107632699281034892009-05-05T08:42:00.000-04:002009-05-05T08:42:00.000-04:00It's hard to imagine that any human act is without...It's hard to imagine that any human act is without some level of symbol, and that includes the Al Smith dinner.<br /><br />There are times, however, when the community gathers for the express purpose of celebrating its symbols in a rather solemn, ritual fashion and does the work of incorporating new members - as at a commencement.<br /><br />The principal difference between the two events is that the Al Smith dinner included both major candidates for the office of president and did not intend any formal honoring of either, much less did it vest or award either candidate with the symbols of the Archdiocese of New York.<br /><br />I would have no problem with the president of ND inviting Obama for dinner, for conversation, for debate or, as I put it, "a seminar or symposium."Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-46647193960422742192009-05-05T06:37:00.000-04:002009-05-05T06:37:00.000-04:00Why did you not take exception (or did you?) to th...Why did you not take exception (or did you?) to the fact that Cardinal John Egan, then Archbishop of New York, invited Presidential Candidate Barack Obama to the Al Smith Dinner last October in New York, permitted him to speak to a largely Catholic group as well as a nationally televised audience, and dined with him, seated to his right? Was there no symbolism in that gathering?Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01373462435440587675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-49636928850856783122009-05-05T00:42:00.000-04:002009-05-05T00:42:00.000-04:00Notre Dame does have a policy of extending an invi...Notre Dame does have a policy of extending an invitation to the President of the United States in the first year of his/her term. Such was the case in 2001, when the university extended an invitation to George W. Bush, who at the time was the chief executive of a state who presided over the most executions of criminals. That, obviously, was in flagrant violation of Church teaching.<br /><br />Though that is the policy of the University of Notre Dame, in defending the decision to extend the invitation to President Obama, the university's opposition to racism, especially Fr. Hesburgh's long service to the cause of civil rights, has been mentioned as part of the context for inviting the first African American President of the United States.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03655491639057314900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-89599601739024389022009-05-04T10:53:00.000-04:002009-05-04T10:53:00.000-04:00Commencement is the school’s annual ritual for mak...Commencement is the school’s annual ritual for making symbol of its history, purpose, accomplishments...well said, Sir!Concord Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03018520011730719689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-60471006926545252912009-05-03T23:06:00.000-04:002009-05-03T23:06:00.000-04:00What can I say? Just brilliant! Congragulations fo...What can I say? Just brilliant! Congragulations for the publication, Fr. Flemming.Xaviernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-68484023442126539382009-05-03T22:58:00.000-04:002009-05-03T22:58:00.000-04:00A commencement ceremony and speech are not, by any...A commencement ceremony and speech are not, by any stretch of the imagination, a venue for "exploring and listening to other views" - with which I would have absolutely not problem.<br /><br />It's my understanding that my alma mater has a standing invitation to a president in his first year to be honored and speak at graduation. I would be interested in your source for understanding that the invitation was offered because of Obama's being the first black president. I would hope that Notre Dame would not issue invitations on the basis of color.Concord Pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18322127779647130869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4808375493800890797.post-17519651301526656072009-05-03T22:44:00.000-04:002009-05-03T22:44:00.000-04:00I am very pleased that Notre Dame did not rescind ...I am very pleased that Notre Dame did not rescind invitation to President Obama to speak at Graduation ceremony. <br /><br />A university should be a place for respect for differing opinions in an atmosphere of exploring and listening to other views. <br /><br />I understand that Pres. Obama will be honored for being the first black American presiden and for the break down of racial barriers...that should be enough, in my opinion, to earn him a place at Notre Dame's graduation..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com