It's November, the month of All Souls, a season in which Christians pray for the salvation of those who have died. Our thoughts might turn to what are called the Four Last Things: death, judgment, heaven, hell - and perhaps another: purgatory. An item in today's news - Ross Douthat's interview of Donald Trump - includes all five! While this post was written after I had read the the transcript, this prayer is not about Donald Trump - it's about each and all of us. Here's a link to the whole interview and at the bottom of this post, you'll find the portion of the interview relevant to this post.
ROSS DOUTHAT: Death. Let's talk about death.
DONALD TRUMP: Okay.
DOUTHAT: What do you think happens when you die?
TRUMP: Well, I hope I'm missed. (LAUGH) I hope--
DOUTHAT: No, I mean-- I mean to you-- I mean to-- What do you think happens to Donald Trump when you die?
TRUMP: Okay. You mean where I go?
DOUTHAT: Exactly.
TRUMP: Well, I'm a religious person, so in theory I go to heaven.
DOUTHAT: Do you think you're going to heaven?
TRUMP: I hope so. I don't want to go to hell.
DOUTHAT: So I watched you at Charlie Kirk's memorial service– Erica Kirk, his widow got up - and gave some very moving remarks about Christian forgiveness, how you have to forgive your enemies and your opponents--
TRUMP: That's right.
DOUTHAT: And you followed her, and you said, and I know this was a little bit of a joke but I think facts come through jokes. You said, quote, "I hate my opponents and I don't want the best for them." Let's say you pass away, you're entering the next life, and all you have to do to enter paradise is feel love and forgiveness for James Comey, Nancy Pelosi, anyone who you have expressed hate for over the years. Do you think you can do it?
TRUMP: Well, then I wouldn't be real, would I? I mean, if I said to you, sure, the easy answer to that is "Oh, yes, I could forgive."
DOUTHAT: No, I don't think it's an easy question at all.
TRUMP: I found them to be extremely dishonest people, very bad people, very bad for our country. I love our country far more than I can love people and people like that.
DOUTHAT: Is the answer no then?
TRUMP: The answer is no. I want to be honest, no. I think it would--
DOUTHAT: Before the judgment throne of God?
TRUMP: Before the judgment. No, I think they were very bad people and-- I dislike, I can use the word hate, I do hate some of my enemies. I think they're-- they've been terrible. Look what they've put me through, the weaponization. I got indicted - I got impeached.
DOUTHAT: Mr. President. You have had the most charmed and remarkable life of any American in my entire lifetime, and you are telling me that before the judgment throne of God you couldn't find it in your heart to forgive some of your enemies? After all that's been given to you? Come on. Help me out here.
TRUMP: I mean, it's such an easy answer. All I have to do is say, "Yes, I can."
DOUTHAT: I-- I, again, I don't think it's an easy answer--
TRUMP: Honestly, , can I-- can I be honest--
DOUTHAT: --that's why I asked it. Yes.
TRUMP: I probably cannot do that, no, because I do hate some of my enemies and I always will.
